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{"text":[[{"start":7.65,"text":"Lord Richard Hermer says that law is his “happy space”. As the government grapples with the Iran war, Donald Trump’s threat to scrap the US-UK trade deal and Labour’s slide in the polls, it’s good to know that such a space still exists for a senior member of the party."}],[{"start":23.450000000000003,"text":"Within hours of our lunch ending, Sir Keir Starmer is facing calls to resign over the failed vetting of Peter Mandelson. "}],[{"start":30.950000000000003,"text":"None of these events appear to detract from the optimism of the attorney-general for England and Wales, and one of the prime minister’s closest allies, who greets me cheerily at Sis&Sibs, a Turkish-Mediterranean café in his north London neighbourhood: “The headline point is, I love this job . . . every day I kind of skip in.”"}],[{"start":52.5,"text":"Hermer, who was recently described by one person with links to No 10 as “the closest thing Keir’s got to a friend in the Cabinet”, offers a unique lens through which Starmer’s government can be understood."}],[{"start":64.4,"text":"The attorney-general is the PM’s chief legal adviser, as well as the person responsible for the UK’s key prosecuting authorities. As such, his advice is likely to have underpinned Starmer’s recent statements appearing to challenge the legality of US-Israeli air strikes on Iran. He has also been blamed for the UK’s proposed deal to hand back the Chagos Islands to Mauritius."}],[{"start":91.2,"text":"Would this government ever breach international law? “No,” says Hermer, without missing a beat."}],[{"start":null,"text":"The reason why we are leaders in international law is predominantly because it is in our own national interest
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Sis&Sibs
20 York Rise, London NW5 1ST
Manti £18
Queen menemen £17
Cinnamon bun French toast £13
Sparkling water £3.50
Orange juice £6
Macchiato £3.20
Oat flat white x3 £13.50
Total (including tip) £89.20
I know what politics is like . . . I kind of realised that other people were going to have a go at me
"}],[{"start":379.4,"text":"“Bon appétit!” says Hermer, as we dig into our mains. The manti is delicious, if extremely filling, given we are eating lunch early because Hermer has to get to the Lords to vote."}],[{"start":391.34999999999997,"text":"Hermer’s arms uncross as he talks about his personal life rather than the job."}],[{"start":396.79999999999995,"text":"Raised in a Jewish family in South Glamorgan in Wales, Hermer describes himself as an “inordinately proud Welshman”. His father, a “one-nation Tory”, was a solicitor, and I’m unsurprised to learn he is the oldest of three children."}],[{"start":411.65,"text":"The differing political beliefs at home never caused friction, he says, and are the reason he disagrees with “this kind of factional stuff [that] you’ve got to dislike the opposition . . . because I’ve seen someone who was a true Conservative, but had [an] absolute moral compass, absolute moral values”."}],[{"start":428.7,"text":"Hermer was always interested in politics and was on the National Union of Students, “but I never wanted to be a politician. I thought through work and through extracurricular political activity, that was going to be my contribution.”"}],[{"start":441.9,"text":"While studying, he did a mini-pupillage — a kind of legal internship — to please his parents, who were keen for him to pursue a profession. Childhood ambitions to be a playwright or director were abandoned, but he says his parents would have supported him if he had become a “performer on the streets of Bogotá”."}],[{"start":460.34999999999997,"text":"He moved to London in 1996 and became a member of Doughty Street Chambers, where he met a young Starmer. The men were friendly before their careers went stratospheric."}],[{"start":471.34999999999997,"text":"“What a lot of people don’t see, but I’ve known for 30 years, is someone who is unbelievably humane,” Hermer says of Starmer, “incredibly decent, like, incredibly decent to everybody, and very good fun and passionate . . . I bet you he will know the name of every single person who works in that building, whether it’s doing the coffee or head of a particular unit.” "}],[{"start":492.74999999999994,"text":"Despite the headlines, some of Hermer’s most meaningful cases happened early in his career, he says. He represented the families of two council drain workers in Neath and Port Talbot who had died because of fumes. As the inquest progressed, it became clear these had come from a leak at a nearby chemical plant that hadn’t been reported."}],[{"start":null,"text":"
Chagos is ‘in an incredibly important position on the globe from a geopolitical, strategic, defence perspective . . . you need to work out what’s in the UK’s best interest’
"}],[{"start":571.3000000000001,"text":"Beyond the obvious stress of being attorney-general at a time when the country is grappling with multiple wars and the government lurches from crisis to crisis, Hermer faces the additional challenge of being a high-profile Jewish figure as antisemitic attacks have reached historic highs."}],[{"start":588.5500000000001,"text":"While he does not do the “God bit”, Jewish culture and tradition are important to him and he has spoken at synagogues in recent months following attacks on Jewish communities in London, Manchester and Sydney, events that have been “pretty sobering”. He often cites the concept of tikkun — repair — as being central to his life and driving motivations."}],[{"start":610.2,"text":"Two days after we meet there is another arson attack on a north London synagogue. Hermer puts out a statement saying that the “full force of the law” will be used against those found responsible."}],[{"start":621.1500000000001,"text":"“I’d make people very worried if I talked about the stuff that had come to me personally, safe to say that, online, there’s loads of antisemitic stuff on me,” he says. “But my concern is not my concern to me, my concern is concern to the community . . . we cannot let a small number of terrorists or keyboard warriors divide communities in this country.”"}],[{"start":641.7,"text":"Hermer was one of a group of eight high-profile Jewish lawyers to sign an open letter in the FT in October 2023, following the Hamas attacks urging Israel to abide by international law and citing “significant concern” about the country’s initial response."}],[{"start":659,"text":"What has been the reaction from the Jewish community towards him about such statements now that he’s attorney-general?"}],[{"start":665.9,"text":"“I have no doubt there will be people in the Jewish community who don’t like my public statements both pre and post [being attorney-general] on a range of issues including Israel, but that’s unsurprising,” he says."}],[{"start":677.9,"text":"I want to probe more about his approach to the situation in Israel, given he is presumably advising on the UK’s response, but I have spent the whole meal trying to avoid him quoting the law officers’ convention — a part of the government ministerial code that states any advice, or even the fact that he has advised, cannot be disclosed — at me."}],[{"start":697.25,"text":"Anyone who has followed Hermer’s public appearances in front of select committees or in interviews will be aware of how often he cites it. I consider it a win that he only attempts to quote it once during our lunch, when I ask about how the Iran war is affecting his day-to-day role. I decide to have a go at mentioning Chagos."}],[{"start":716.8,"text":"As if by magic, his special adviser appears across the road to tell him he needs to leave for his next meeting."}],[{"start":723.3499999999999,"text":"“You just hear the word Chagos and that’s what brought you over. It’s like the alert, the Chagos alert went flashing,” he jokes to his spad. To my surprise, Hermer pushes back his meeting, saying: “I’m not rushing this last bit, I’m afraid.”"}],[{"start":738.9999999999999,"text":"After the government thought it had put the Chagos deal to bed a year ago, it has now been shelved following Trump’s new opposition to the deal, which he described in January as an “act of total weakness”."}],[{"start":749.8499999999999,"text":"Hermer says that the UK’s decision to hand the islands back to Mauritius and pay more than £100mn a year to lease back the UK-US military base on the largest island, Diego Garcia, is not “some slavish devotion to an advisory opinion” from the International Court of Justice, which said in 2019 that the UK’s separation of the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius was unlawful. Instead, it is driven by national security concerns."}],[{"start":778.0999999999999,"text":"Chagos is “in an incredibly important position on the globe from a geopolitical, strategic, defence perspective, national security perspective. If you want to make sure not only that it is locked in for the foreseeable future, but that you can’t, for example, get another state building a whopping huge listening post on the neighbouring island . . . you need to think through all the steps that flow from this advisory opinion and work out what’s in the UK’s best interest.”"}],[{"start":803.5999999999999,"text":"He adds: “We’ll just have to see how things pan out.”"}],[{"start":807.2499999999999,"text":"I know it won’t be long before his spad has circled round the block and is back with us again. Will Starmer still be leader in the next election?"}],[{"start":815.9499999999999,"text":"“Obviously, we’re not in the place we’d want to be in the polls at the moment, but I really am optimistic that we’re going to win the next election under Keir.”"}],[{"start":823.4999999999999,"text":"Shortly after I get back to the office, the Mandelson vetting controversy starts to break. I send Hermer a text several days later: does he stand by his comment? "}],[{"start":832.8499999999999,"text":"Ever the loyal aide, he replies: “Absolutely.”"}],[{"start":836.3999999999999,"text":"Suzi Ring is the FT’s legal correspondent in London"}],[{"start":840.8499999999999,"text":"Find out about our latest stories first — follow FT Weekend on Instagram, Bluesky and X, and sign up to receive the FT Weekend newsletter every Saturday morning"}],[{"start":859.3499999999999,"text":""}]],"url":"https://audio.ftcn.net.cn/album/a_1777037479_3555.mp3"}